Helen: Catherine, I often feel that when I'm seeing PhD
students that they come to me with an expectation that I'm almost like a key
holder to a body of specific knowledge and I can sort of signpost them in the
direction and offer that insider view of that particular career or sector. Is
that something that you experience?
Catherine: Students would love us to tell them, I think,
exactly what it's like to be an HR executive or a publishing agent or something.
And I feel very resistant to doing that because I think it is the sort of thing
that people need to find out for themselves and its through exploring a career
that you develop your commitment to it and decide whether it's the right thing
or not for you to do. And so I must admit I try and hold back from giving my
partial view; a little bit of understanding and what I can do is help students
find that information for themselves. And so a PhD student knows how to
research, knows how to find things out, knows how to use their critical
judgement about that material that they're finding, and I think what I would
like to see myself doing is giving them the motivation and the resources to do
that efficiently, effectively. Some good websites, some good key contacts, good
people to talk to, you know, some approaches to take rather than handing over,
you know, filling up the ‘empty vessel’ with a bit of knowledge about a
particular career area.
Helen: Because I think the sort of signposting aspect of
what we do is often underestimated really in terms of its importance because it
is about facilitating access, not just to information, but also to people, to
contacts, to moving forward. And I, like you, very much resist the notion that
I'm going to provide the insider view or a discreet body of knowledge about
particular sectors or occupations (a) because I don't feel that is particularly
my role and I don't have it, because my sort of skills lie within guidance
practice. And (b) because I think it is really important that we do encourage
students to take that responsibility.
Catherine: It links back to what we were saying about
students evolving their career over a long period of time; it’s not just going
to be this once that you make that decision but to know how you can then engage
in the future when the careers service isn't there as the support and the
resource that's easy to tap into at this stage. But when you are doing it really
on your own in the future that you can still use those resources. And it can be
fun; finding about careers can be fascinating – especially if the pressure
isn't on you to choose today and to start a job on Monday. You know, if you
have given yourself enough time to find out, to do the exploring. And I think
it is about building a commitment. It is a bit like the first stage of your PhD
project; of deciding what it is the question is and using the resources around…
you know, you build your commitment to it during that phase and I think that is
one of the values of giving yourself time at the beginning of career
orientation to build your commitment to something.
Helen: And I think you’re absolutely right – I think the
sort of inherent research skills that PhD students have mean they are actually
much better equipped to doing this sort of exploratory research into careers
than most students
Catherine: Yeah
Helen: Which I think puts them at an advantage although they
might not always acknowledge that
Catherine: Yes
Phil: I suppose in answer to the question: ‘is a careers
advisor an expert?’ I would be inclined to say ‘yes they are’, but they are not
experts in the particular career area that you want to necessarily go into. But
they do have trained expertise in career counselling and career education and
so on and it’s how they use that in the guidance interaction or education
interaction. But, rather like teachers, who might also see us as professional
experts in some way, I suppose a good illustration could be the idea of writing
an essay; you wouldn't necessarily expect your lecturer to give you the answer
to an essay. And similarly you can't really expect a careers advisor to give
you an answer to your career or tell you what to do. They're there to help you
research and refine your thinking and that's how they can be used as a
resource.
Helen: I think, from a development point, it could bring the
sort of techniques to sort of help them reflect and explore because often
students that we see haven't really engaged with that idea before. And it comes
as a revelation that they can think about what they have to offer and it can
sometimes feel quite self-indulgent to take a step back and think ‘I'm actually
just going to consider what it is I want, what I can do, what I can contribute
and how that can be meaningful in the labour market’ rather than simply
rushing.
Catherine: But it is well worth investing in isn’t it? Because
we do see students who make the wrong snap decision and six months later have
left that trainee accountancy scheme, have, you know, had a false start in
something. And so spending some time – perhaps continuing in – in what had been
a part-time job or a low level job for a period of time might feel like failure
at the time, but actually it's quite sensible in terms of the longer term
progression, because you don't want too many false starts; you can't test out
too many things at sort of permanent position level before it looks a bit odd
on your CV and you have to do some quite serious re-jigging of your past.
Helen: Absolutely, and I think one of the issues is for PhD
students is they don't give themselves permission, or don't simply have the
time, to engage in that during the research process itself. It feels like it
hits crisis point once they complete and they are sort of vivered and they
maybe give themselves a couple of months to start thinking seriously about
career planning. Whereas, if you think about undergraduates,
we’re prepping them from day one, and they’ve had three years
to really sort of engage with the notion of career development and career
understanding and exploration. And so PhD students really need to give
themselves that time I think.
Catherine: And part of it is like rebuilding confidence
because some PhD students describe their experiences as having been, you know,
closed into that library. Whereas other skills to do with engaging with people
or going out and finding and making contacts and networking and talking to
people about other things other than their research has sort of…
Catherine: Yes it might do mightn’t it
Helen: Yeah
Catherine: I’m a great fan of career research interviews;
going out and meeting people and talking to them about their jobs
Helen: Absolutely
Catherine: And talking to them about their jobs and then
perhaps going and doing a day of shadowing and perhaps a bit of work experience
and nearly every student I talk to says that they don't have time to do that
during that PhD I haven't met many who can fit it in.
Helen: But I think, even if you could just take the odd
afternoon here and there, I think it is something that you could reconcile your
PhD with, doing some career prepping
Catherine: Have you met many students who have managed to do
the two together?
Helen: I haven't but I'm not sure how far that is because
they don't necessarily always have the time. I think sometimes the inclination
isn't there, perhaps as well because there is this tendency I think to sort of
defer and think ‘I will park that; I will compartmentalise career related
issues and worry about that once I've completed.’
Catherine: Yes
Helen: But actually that's potentially time lost in terms of
making good connections that could assist at the end of the PhD.
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