What was the position that you got? 

The title was IT specialist it was a graduate training position

How long did you stay there? 

At that company?

Yes 

I was there from November 2001 until June 2005. The reason I stuck it so long – I decided fairly quickly, whatever I thought during my PhD, I had sort of recovered from the stress of it and I thought, you know, 'I do want to go back into academia!'  But by that time I had the sort of job, which was quite useful for having the time to develop an academic CV. I mean, at that point I didn't just want to apply straight to any academic jobs that were available, although I did for a few. I mean, my view was any university I applied to was going to look at my CV and see that I had done nothing of academic note since my PhD and think oh well she's left she's got a bit bored and now she wants to come back. But on paper there is no sort of evidence that I had any real inclination to come back.

And so I thought I'm going to put any applications on hold until I've got at least one publication under my belt and then you know that is something to show this is something I've done since getting my PhD. I had to try and write something and get it published. And the job I had, I worked at home a lot, I was unsupervised a lot – at one time I had two different bosses. And so the opportunities for not doing the work I was supposed to and instead doing philosophy work – I could do that pretty much all day. You know, you could get away with doing the bare minimum, especially with two bosses. As it turned out, at any time I wasn't doing work for the one they just assumed I was doing work for the other and, you know, even when they worked out what was happening, which they eventually did, they couldn't really report me because then they would be admitting they hadn't been supervising me properly. And so you know it was all terribly horrible and deceptive but, you know, by then I knew what I wanted to do and my priorities really weren't being an honourable employee.

How did you ultimately leave?

The company offered voluntary redundancies early in 2005 they announced they were going to do them. Had I been made, I mean they had had redundancies before and I hadn't taken any because of the redundancy terms in my contract, I wouldn't have got very much money from it, certainly not enough to leave a job without having anything else. But the scheme of voluntary redundancies they offered early in 2005 were different because anyone who volunteered was guaranteed a minimum amount of money and I think that was £8,000. And so I left. I thought 'well, that is enough money to make ends meet for a certain period of time'. I mean, it was quite a big decision because I had a mortgage by this point and so I took that.

I applied for other jobs and by that time I still didn't have any academic publications since leaving university. But I thought I will apply for a job, you know, I'm not fussed about and just sort of make ends meet, you know, the important thing is to seize an opportunity and leave. As it turned out, I didn't get another job I didn't like. I went to lots of interviews but I think probably in some way the fact that I didn't really want the job probably came through.

I mean, that period of my life there were quite a lot of positive transitions in many ways. After I left my job, after I took the redundancy that was in June, I was in a relationship with somebody who I had been with since the end of 1999. It really wasn't going anywhere but I felt trapped in my job a little bit and, you know, we had a mortgage together, that was sort of another restriction. Once I had the redundancy a couple of months later I ended that relationship, you know, even though that meant sort of living with this person still, I'm going off the subject a bit. I decided I wanted to finish the job and so I suppose that sort of spurred me on to make other positive changes in my life.

I still was not really thinking of an academic job straightaway because I hadn't got a publication. I actually did get an acceptance from a journal in the November and so this was five months after my redundancy. I didn't apply for any jobs straightaway. I started a relationship with somebody who I am about to get married to and so it all turned out well in the end!  But I still felt trapped in London because I had a mortgage. And it was him, actually, who said 'why don't you just apply for the sorts of jobs that you want to do?' which sounds like a really obvious thing but, you know, for various reasons I really felt like I couldn't. The first one I applied for was the job I've got now and the interpretation I put on that is – if you really want something and you have kind of gone out of your way to go and get it you are already in a good position when it comes to things like job interviews.

Did you apply for many post-docs, post doctorals? 

No, this was the only one I applied for. At the same time I applied for this, or maybe a little bit after, I applied for a lectureship somewhere else but I never heard back from them and so it's not all good, it was a lot better than it was trying to do anything else.

Can you talk to me about your application and being short-listed in the interview process? 

Yes the application was fairly standard with regard to these sorts of things. You send a CV and a covering letter and sometimes you have to send an example of something you have written. What I sent was the article that I had recently had accepted by a journal. One thing that is worth mentioning: I kept in touch with some of the people who I had known through university, the sort of people who would provide me with references. And it is really good to keep in touch with these people in a friendly way rather than contact them whenever you want a reference, you know?  Keep a nice relationship with them and, you know, let them know how you are doing because that is really useful if you ever need them.

One of the people who gave me a reference was someone that I knew from the first university I was at who was my supervisor while I was doing my Masters and we sort of have a friendship and we are sort of still in touch. And when I asked him to write a reference he asked me if I would send him the covering letter, which I had written for my application. He read it and he said 'I think this is a really good covering letter, I think you already are going to stand out and the reason for that is that – ', I mean this wouldn't apply to all JRFs, but because I work in an institute where there is a fairly sort of defined research area I had sort of done a lot of research. And in my covering letter I had sort of outlined the sort of research I had done in the past and I said 'I think this would be relevant to the sort of research that you do at this institute for these reasons – '  and I had sort of said something like 'possible research topics I could address are – ' and sort of a list. As I said, one of my referees was really impressed by that and I think it was just the fact that I had bothered to research what sort of a job it was. It wasn't a standard cover letter that would fit any application. I suppose, if you go out of your way to show that you are interested and you are already thinking about the sort of contribution you can make, it is perceived in a positive way.

Did you have to include a research proposal for a topic? 

No, no, you do with some places. I mean I did apply for some of those things but this was sort of really early on before I decided I should get some things on my CV before I made any more applications. I was in touch with a few people at the university where I did my PhD who had gone on to have JRFs. And so I just sent them an email and asked for advice and one of them sent me the research proposal he had sent in his application for a JRF, which was successful. And so it is worth picking the brains of these sorts of people.

I mean there is a tremendous amount of luck involved, and this person told me this. He went through several applications, unsuccessful applications, before he realised that his PhD supervisor was actually giving him really unenthusiastic references and so you have to kind of bear all these things I mind. Just keep trying, keep in touch with people, try and find out (if you can) the sorts of references you are being given.

During the three and a half years of working in kind of the commercial sector did you keep your foot in the door with academic work? 

I wrote a paper, which is the one that I said had been published. I started writing another one, which I'm still refining and it is still going off to journals even now, it can be a very long process.

After I left I would occasionally go to – I was living in London and you know there are various things that you can go to in London, seminars which are open to people who are not just members of the university. And it is kind of worth going to those things. It helps you feel less isolated. I actually remember going to a seminar at Birkbeck College and I just came out of it really positive just because I had stepped back into that atmosphere. But after I had got my redundancy, actually while I was still working at that IT company, I applied for a sessional lectureship at one of the London colleges and that involved – the prospect there was writing a 10 week lecture course and it was for adults, it was an evening class basically. It wasn't towards any particular qualification, but I applied for that and I was successful and so I ended up doing that at the end of 2005.

That was really, really enjoyable. I wrote the lectures – it was kind of nerve wracking at first and then it was a two hour seminar every week. And I just found adults who weren't being forced to be there was really good – everyone was really enthusiastic. It was a way of showing that my academic CV hadn't gone dead.

Can you tell me about the interview for the JRF? 

Yes, I turned up here and there was an interview panel of four or five people. It was actually quite nerve wracking. The person who I suppose is my sort of superior, like my immediate superior now who I get on really well with, I came away with the impression that he really didn't like me which I don't think was the case. I think academics can be a bit like that if you are used to the commercial world where everyone sort of goes on courses in people skills and you sort of turn up to an interview panel of academics they can put less emphasis on that sort of thing. But I think don't be disheartened is the message I would give.

I think I started off by giving a five minute presentation on a possible research topic, something like this. The brief was I could either talk about a topic that fell within the research interest of the institute that I was applying to or I could do something else. And I think, you know, often things like that are a no brainer, you know, if you do speak about something that the research institute that you are applying to does, it sort of shows that you are interesting and flexible and so on. And so I rambled on for five minutes about that. They asked me some questions. It was a bit like the sort of questions you get in a seminar but I suppose less probing because you have only been talking for five minutes. And so there was a bit of a discussion.

How did they feel about your career break in IT?

I think I had addressed that in my cover letter and I think it is important to do that. You know, I've since talked to various people about that and it can put off people to employ an academic. I think I said something like, I had basically been quite honest, I had said towards the end of my PhD I wasn't entirely sure that academia was for me but after leaving I fairly quickly realised that it was. And in order to get back into academia I spent many hours in my spare times and weekends working on my academic CV with the intention of eventually reapplying. Just make it sound like a positive experience I think. And also, even if you hated the job – the sort of non-academic job that you had – it is probably worthwhile making it sound like it wasn't a complete waste of time. I am sort of constantly a bit worried about anomaly in my CV even now, and so one thing I've done here is to volunteer to join the IT committee, which I think is going to entail meeting once a term. But because I have a background in IT it is also a kind of way of blending the different strands together and just sort of showing I have a background in IT. It is not just a standalone thing in my CV, it can be sort of worked in in positive ways into my academic work broadly construed. 

Can you remember how you gave the positive spin on your time in your IT career in your cover letter? 

Yeah because I still do it. I think one thing to think about is the reason it is going to be a worry to people is they think that you don't really know what you want and so I think one way to do it is to try and impress upon them that you know by taking a break from academia you have been able to sort of crystallise what you want, you know?  I actually think it is a positive thing if you get to the end of the PhD and you're not sure whether you want to be in academia – it is probably not a very good thing just to drift into it like an awful lot of people seem to do. I mean, I sort of see various people of my age milling about who look fairly disillusioned with their academic jobs. Just say, maybe, that you weren't entirely sure that whilst it was a natural continuation of your career to date, going into academia was the thing for you and so you left but realised the error of you ways. You know, emphasise the work that you had to do maybe to get back into academia. I mean, that's what I did. I said I had to spend a lot of spare time writing papers and, you know, balancing that with a fulltime demanding job. As I've said, it wasn't that demanding as I sort of interpreted it. And also, I did the 10 week lecture course at one of the London colleges. And so these sorts of things, they are kind of your proof that you are committed to an academic career.

Although you had already resigned from the IT job before you got short-listed and then appointed to the JRF you nevertheless will have had to come to terms with the drop in pay, is that significant? 

Well, it's interesting. I remember remarking to myself shortly after I had taken the redundancy that it actually teaches you a lot about yourself because one thing you could do is go straight out and get a job very similar to, you know, what you had just been made redundant from doing. You could probably get a job being paid slightly more because that is just the way the world works, you know, people can increase their pay just by changing company every year. And you know not only would you get a bit of a pay increase, but you would also have this lump sum, which you had just pocketed through your redundancy. And so if what you care about is money you can probably do that. I mean, I saw it more as an opportunity to cut back on my spending and just have a bit of freedom, you know, not have to go in to work every morning in a job that I really didn't like and just do what I wanted to do – do some academic work without feeling guilty or looking over my shoulder to make sure nobody was going to catch me doing it. And so, yeah, I was a lot happier not buying anything and not having to work than I would have been sort of having all that money and, you know, still having to go to work every day. And that has actually worked out really well because that cut my spending and it has still lasted to this day I don't often go out and sort of spend an enormous amount of money and so in all ways its really good.

And so it's not a big sacrifice 

Not really because I don't like shopping as much as I used to

Do you think that period of time where you were surreptitiously working on your academic work with the IT company, do you think that also makes you relish the chance to be able to spend all day working on academic work?

It should do but in practice it doesn't really work out that well. I've found because if you – I found that I was much better able to concentrate and focus if I thought that possibly somebody was going to interrupt me doing it in the next 10 minutes and make me do something else than if you have got the whole day stretching out before you and you kind of think 'oh god, I've got to come up with a few good ideas today.'  I mean, the way of working, although it was less pleasant, it was actually much better for focusing. And there were probably days when I got a lot more work done in between doing the work I was supposed to be doing for the company that employed me. And so, you know, if anyone is sort of stuck in a job they hate, that is probably something to remember; that, you know, even though you think you have got no time, the time that you do have you are probably in the state of mind where you are placed to make much better use of it and focus better than if you had an academic job.